Ebay Question (honest question) - Guild Wars Forums

tuskenraid · Jun 27, 2005, 04:33 PM // 16:33

After reading through a number of threads and thinking about the current game economy and bot problems, and the ridiculous prices of some items, I have an honest question about ebay sellers. Please don't flame, just help enlighten.

If you are a casual gamer, half-hour here and there a few times a week, and you play through game honestly, earn your own weapons, sell stuff to the traders and occassionaly to other players, you most likely are going to end up with low amounts of gold 7.5K-10K at any given time, give or take. So let's say you really want that 15K armor (not even thinking about fissure armor yet) and you don't want to spend all of your free playing time doing fissure runs or farming somewhere and then try to sell it off to other players, what's the problem with buying 100K of ebay? If they didn't use bots, earned the money themselves, why is it so wrong to pay for it once and a great while to get what you want so you get back to the game?

I guess I just don't understand how the casual gamer is ever supposed to get the nice fancy stuff without sacrificing a significant amount of time? I'm not advocating ebay, but I am truly curious. Can someone tell me why it's frowned upon, and why it shouldn't be done?

Algren Cole · Jun 27, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

the "casual gamer" wouldn't care if he had the 15K armor....or how long it took him to get it. The "hardcore gamer without enough time" would purchase gold from Ebay.

and just so you know...there is nobody selling gold on Ebay that didn't use a bot to get it.

tuskenraid · Jun 27, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

the "casual gamer" wouldn't care if he had the 15K armor....or how long it took him to get it. The "hardcore gamer without enough time" would purchase gold from Ebay.

and just so you know...there is nobody selling gold on Ebay that didn't use a bot to get it.

Well, I appreciate your opinion, but I disagree as you are speaking in generalities and offering a broad statement.

Also, you didn't answer my question. I asked what's wrong with it, not would the casual gamer do it or not.

Finally, how do you know that everyone selling on ebay used a bot. Again, that seems to be a broad statement.

I just want to understand the right/wrong of it all.

Algren Cole · Jun 27, 2005, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuskenraid

Well, I appreciate your opinion, but I disagree as you are speaking in generalities and offering a broad statement.

Also, you didn't answer my question. I asked what's wrong with it, not would the casual gamer do it or not.

Finally, how do you know that everyone selling on ebay used a bot. Again, that seems to be a broad statement.

I just want to understand the right/wrong of it all.

there would be no profitable way to do this using a player controlled character...you wouldn't conceivably be able to make the gold required to sell it.....unless you were an ascended warrior doing droknar runs for 8 hours a day 5 days a week...

I think the problem with buying gold off ebay is that you are supporting people who break the EULA agreement in order to make a profit...which is surely frowned upon.

DrSLUGFly · Jun 27, 2005, 05:01 PM // 17:01

people in China get paid peanuts to do this on multiple games, probably running several games at once on a single computer in window mode. That's why a lot of the sites selling the stuff and a lot of ads that show up on forums are loaded with errors, second language english (not to say it's only china, but that's a major source)

tuskenraid · Jun 27, 2005, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrSLUGFly

people in China get paid peanuts to do this on multiple games, probably running several games at once on a single computer in window mode. That's why a lot of the sites selling the stuff and a lot of ads that show up on forums are loaded with errors, second language english (not to say it's only china, but that's a major source)

So this goes back to my original posted question. If bots aren't being used to get the gold and some guy wants to sell it on ebay, what's wrong with buying it? I just read the EULA and terms of conduct and it does not say that it is illegal. It does say that the a person may not advertise for profit IN GAME. These people don't advertise in game. They advertise on ebay. So if it's not going against the EULA or terms of conduct, is being collected legitimately, they why is it wrong to buy it?

Again, not advocating, but genuinely curious. So far, no good reason not to has been made. Does it hurt other gamers? Does it affect others playing experience, or does it just piss people off?

EvilWizard · Jun 27, 2005, 05:22 PM // 17:22

I bought a 100K in gold for 8 bucks off of Ebay because while I play a decent amount I don't feel like dealing with selling items in pseudo auction zones to get the money to buy the stuff I want. The stuff is so cheap right now it really doesn't matter in my opinion. If you want to pay real money for something then that is your choice. Yes the people may be using Bots, but in my opinion that is something that is technically out of your control. If the EULA does not expressly forbid the buying/selling of virtual items in game for real money then you should not feel bad in the least for doing it. The onus is on the software developer to come up with solutions to fix cheats not you. Many people think it is lame to buy items, but like I said if you have the money and not the time or patience to buy something as simple as gold or X item then it really doesn't affect the overall game (being this game is more skill based...) Just my 2 cents.

GranDeWun · Jun 27, 2005, 05:25 PM // 17:25

If AN wants end bots and farming, the answer is very simple...increase drop rates to the point where gold & purple items litter the ground, and reduce prices/requirements for fancy armor cosmetics. Increased supply = lower price = no incentive to farm/bot.

Otherwise I agree - why should casual player not be able to afford to dye armor black? Huh?

rwt2006 · Jun 27, 2005, 05:33 PM // 17:33

why is it wrong, because some1 is proffiting from having a bot set up over night and making real life money for a unreal thing

Dralon · Jun 27, 2005, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

the "casual gamer" wouldn't care if he had the 15K armor....or how long it took him to get it. The "hardcore gamer without enough time" would purchase gold from Ebay.

and just so you know...there is nobody selling gold on Ebay that didn't use a bot to get it.

No, a casual gamer can very well want the nicer looking , but expensive armor. Their playstyle however prohibits them from having it (in a time scale reasonable on this planet). So either they turn to e-bay or do not get what they want, either of which seems a valid option for the casual gamer.

Shadowsting · Jun 27, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Last sentence of part 7: "You may not sell or auction any Guild Wars accounts, characters, items, coin or copyrighted material."

Paine · Jun 27, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Hi!

My experience...
Bots,scripts and other 3:rd party programs that gives YOU the advantage of getting items while not sitting in front of your computer is ILLEGAL!

Example:
* You wake up 07.00 in the morning
* You turn on your bot
* You go to work
* When you come back home, your inventory will be filled with 100k and rare items.
That's ILLEGAL.

You may sell the items over ebay if you have found them by yourself safe & clean.
But you may not sell items over ebay if you've used a bot.
Unfortunaly no1 can tell if you've used a bot or not. That's why it makes it legal so far.

EvilWizard · Jun 27, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Well first off running bots is not illegal, it is simply against the EULA which can result in administrative action within the game such as account banning and etc... If the EULA actually states what Shadowsting has posted (I dont read EULAs typically because I hate them and they bore me) then the "selling or auctioning" of items from GW is against the EULA and therefore a bannable offense. One question though. The statement Shadowsting quoted just mentions selling or auctioning but doesn't specifically hit on selling or auctioning for real money or goods... Is that in the EULA and was left out just for post brevity or is it not in the EULA whatsoever, which would mean that selling or auctioning any virtual item in game for money or for other in game items would be against the EULA (which would be really stupid...)

Also because I expect to see the typical EULAs are crap and not enforceable post, there have been really good articles written that basically state a decently written EULA is a legal contract in most cases and the end-gamer will typically not be able to argue successfully against them. Just my 2 cents again (which actually could buy me like a few hundred gold :P)

Algren Cole · Jun 27, 2005, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dralon

So either they turn to e-bay or do not get what they want, either of which seems a valid option for the casual gamer.

so basically we agree that the "casual gamer" wouldn't care very much....

tuskenraid · Jun 27, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by GranDeWun

If AN wants end bots and farming, the answer is very simple...increase drop rates to the point where gold & purple items litter the ground, and reduce prices/requirements for fancy armor cosmetics. Increased supply = lower price = no incentive to farm/bot.

Otherwise I agree - why should casual player not be able to afford to dye armor black? Huh?

You make an interesting point. This is the kind of discussion I was hoping for, not the hang ups over the semantics of the word casual.

I went out with a PUG yesterday and played for about an hour doing the Infusion mission and a little exploring. We had a few drops of gold in amounts ranging from 98 to 320, roughly. I added it up and we had about 2400 gold dropped total. Now, divide that by 8 people and you have a whole 300 gold for an hour of work. To get the 15K armor, not including runes or material expenses, the rate mentioned above for an hour would take 250 HOURS of play time. 250!!!

So, if I want some good items, some cool looking armor, but I'm only able to play 5 or 6 hours a week because I have a job, a wife, and life outside my computer room it would take me almost 42 weeks to have 75K. When I hop on and play I look forward to hooking up with my guild, slaying some monsters and enjoying a really cool game. I don't want to waste those few precious hours doing farming runs.

If someone else is willing to spend the time, why not give them a few bucks for their effort? I think I am definitely starting to lean toward that side of the argument. I just don't see how it hurts anyone. Now if someone can correct me or provide a counter-point I would really like to know so that I can have a truly balanced viewpoint on this.

Algren Cole · Jun 27, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50

you still assume that there is a player doing this....I assure you that nobody selling gold on Ebay is collecting the gold themselves....it just wouldn't make logical sense.

tuskenraid · Jun 27, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrSLUGFly

people in China get paid peanuts to do this on multiple games, probably running several games at once on a single computer in window mode. That's why a lot of the sites selling the stuff and a lot of ads that show up on forums are loaded with errors, second language english (not to say it's only china, but that's a major source)

Algren, please note this post from earlier. Yes, we are running on the assumption that a real live person actually got the money. I've also read about this happening in other posts as well. I'm sure some selling on ebay have used bots, but it is also very likely that many have done the work themselves.

Algren Cole · Jun 27, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuskenraid

Algren, please note this post from earlier. Yes, we are running on the assumption that a real live person actually got the money. I've also read about this happening in other posts as well. I'm sure some selling on ebay have used bots, but it is also very likely that many have done the work themselves.

It's actually very unlikely...it may be likely that they SAY they do the work themselves....but it would take you 8 hours a day 5 days a week just to keep up the supply of gold to be sold...it's just not being done by human characters.

that aside....I see nothing wrong with purchasing gold online...if that's what you want to do. I can't imagine it has any negative ramifications to anyone/antyhing other than your wallet.

MSecorsky · Jun 27, 2005, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Did it ever occur to anyone that when you buy gold, etc. off of eBay you're paying real money for something that doesn't exist?

Oy.

Blight And Ruin · Jun 27, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Algren, you are making a string of assumptions, any one of which could be other than what you assume.

You're assuming that you know the method by which these people are making money.

You're assuming that you know how long it takes them.

You're assuming that trading hours of online "work" for US dollars is not appealing to someone living in a country in which there is no minimum wage in US dollars.

You're assuming that online "work" of this sort is not profitable anywhere else in the globe.

You're assuming that no one in these countries knows how to sub-contract.

You're assuming a ton of stuff that you know nothing about to make that argument. The result is that you're making a fairly pointless and probably incorrect argument.

Jun 27, 2005, 04:33 PM // 16:33	#1
tuskenraid Academy Page Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SoCal	Ebay Question (honest question) After reading through a number of threads and thinking about the current game economy and bot problems, and the ridiculous prices of some items, I have an honest question about ebay sellers. Please don't flame, just help enlighten. If you are a casual gamer, half-hour here and there a few times a week, and you play through game honestly, earn your own weapons, sell stuff to the traders and occassionaly to other players, you most likely are going to end up with low amounts of gold 7.5K-10K at any given time, give or take. So let's say you really want that 15K armor (not even thinking about fissure armor yet) and you don't want to spend all of your free playing time doing fissure runs or farming somewhere and then try to sell it off to other players, what's the problem with buying 100K of ebay? If they didn't use bots, earned the money themselves, why is it so wrong to pay for it once and a great while to get what you want so you get back to the game? I guess I just don't understand how the casual gamer is ever supposed to get the nice fancy stuff without sacrificing a significant amount of time? I'm not advocating ebay, but I am truly curious. Can someone tell me why it's frowned upon, and why it shouldn't be done?

Jun 27, 2005, 05:25 PM // 17:25	#8
GranDeWun Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: May 2005	If AN wants end bots and farming, the answer is very simple...increase drop rates to the point where gold & purple items litter the ground, and reduce prices/requirements for fancy armor cosmetics. Increased supply = lower price = no incentive to farm/bot. Otherwise I agree - why should casual player not be able to afford to dye armor black? Huh? Last edited by GranDeWun; Jun 27, 2005 at 05:27 PM // 17:27.. Reason: oops hit post early

Jun 27, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35	#2
Algren Cole Banned Join Date: Jun 2005	the "casual gamer" wouldn't care if he had the 15K armor....or how long it took him to get it. The "hardcore gamer without enough time" would purchase gold from Ebay. and just so you know...there is nobody selling gold on Ebay that didn't use a bot to get it.

Jun 27, 2005, 05:01 PM // 17:01	#5
DrSLUGFly Desert Nomad Join Date: May 2005 Location: European Server or International	people in China get paid peanuts to do this on multiple games, probably running several games at once on a single computer in window mode. That's why a lot of the sites selling the stuff and a lot of ads that show up on forums are loaded with errors, second language english (not to say it's only china, but that's a major source)

Jun 27, 2005, 05:22 PM // 17:22	#7
EvilWizard Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Apr 2005 Profession: N/R	I bought a 100K in gold for 8 bucks off of Ebay because while I play a decent amount I don't feel like dealing with selling items in pseudo auction zones to get the money to buy the stuff I want. The stuff is so cheap right now it really doesn't matter in my opinion. If you want to pay real money for something then that is your choice. Yes the people may be using Bots, but in my opinion that is something that is technically out of your control. If the EULA does not expressly forbid the buying/selling of virtual items in game for real money then you should not feel bad in the least for doing it. The onus is on the software developer to come up with solutions to fix cheats not you. Many people think it is lame to buy items, but like I said if you have the money and not the time or patience to buy something as simple as gold or X item then it really doesn't affect the overall game (being this game is more skill based...) Just my 2 cents.

Jun 27, 2005, 05:33 PM // 17:33	#9
rwt2006 Academy Page Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Texas Guild: American Border Patrol Profession: W/	why is it wrong, because some1 is proffiting from having a bot set up over night and making real life money for a unreal thing

Jun 27, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42	#11
Shadowsting Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: May 2005 Guild: Gentlemen's Club	Last sentence of part 7: "You may not sell or auction any Guild Wars accounts, characters, items, coin or copyrighted material."

Jun 27, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43	#12
Paine Krytan Explorer Join Date: May 2005 Guild: Clan Plus [Plus]	Hi! My experience... Bots,scripts and other 3:rd party programs that gives YOU the advantage of getting items while not sitting in front of your computer is ILLEGAL! Example: * You wake up 07.00 in the morning * You turn on your bot * You go to work * When you come back home, your inventory will be filled with 100k and rare items. That's ILLEGAL. You may sell the items over ebay if you have found them by yourself safe & clean. But you may not sell items over ebay if you've used a bot. Unfortunaly no1 can tell if you've used a bot or not. That's why it makes it legal so far.

Jun 27, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54	#13
EvilWizard Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Apr 2005 Profession: N/R	Well first off running bots is not illegal, it is simply against the EULA which can result in administrative action within the game such as account banning and etc... If the EULA actually states what Shadowsting has posted (I dont read EULAs typically because I hate them and they bore me) then the "selling or auctioning" of items from GW is against the EULA and therefore a bannable offense. One question though. The statement Shadowsting quoted just mentions selling or auctioning but doesn't specifically hit on selling or auctioning for real money or goods... Is that in the EULA and was left out just for post brevity or is it not in the EULA whatsoever, which would mean that selling or auctioning any virtual item in game for money or for other in game items would be against the EULA (which would be really stupid...) Also because I expect to see the typical EULAs are crap and not enforceable post, there have been really good articles written that basically state a decently written EULA is a legal contract in most cases and the end-gamer will typically not be able to argue successfully against them. Just my 2 cents again (which actually could buy me like a few hundred gold :P)

Jun 27, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50	#16
Algren Cole Banned Join Date: Jun 2005	you still assume that there is a player doing this....I assure you that nobody selling gold on Ebay is collecting the gold themselves....it just wouldn't make logical sense.

Jun 27, 2005, 07:08 PM // 19:08	#19
MSecorsky Furnace Stoker Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: So Cal Guild: The Sinister Vanguard Profession: Me/	Did it ever occur to anyone that when you buy gold, etc. off of eBay you're paying real money for something that doesn't exist? Oy.

Jun 27, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10	#20
Blight And Ruin Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: May 2005 Guild: Never guilded ;-)	Algren, you are making a string of assumptions, any one of which could be other than what you assume. You're assuming that you know the method by which these people are making money. You're assuming that you know how long it takes them. You're assuming that trading hours of online "work" for US dollars is not appealing to someone living in a country in which there is no minimum wage in US dollars. You're assuming that online "work" of this sort is not profitable anywhere else in the globe. You're assuming that no one in these countries knows how to sub-contract. You're assuming a ton of stuff that you know nothing about to make that argument. The result is that you're making a fairly pointless and probably incorrect argument.